Portal talk:Arn

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Variations

Mari mari, I just added the three variations that we are discussing, I am not familiar with this webpage so I am sure it is not the right code but it is a start. We are also discussing a fourth variation but it seems there is no support for it. -Edelstam 09:47, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

This seems very counterproductive. There are 200k speakers according to Ethnologue, with 1% literacy rate. Having 4 or more variants means that you have 500 or fewer writers per variant. I would very strongly advise against entering the online world that way. Siebrand 19:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Estoy de acuerdo en tener las variantes. Pero creo que es urgente tener texto traducido en el primer proyecto. Una vez que este estélisto se pueden crear las otras variantes, no cierto? Saludos --Fiestoforo (talk) 23:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Translation consistency

Variants: Unified, Raguileo, Azumchefe. What to do (see talk)?

Glottolog lists only 3 variants (named in Spanish but not natively?) : Moluche, Pehuenche, Picunche), but knows many aliases from different sources. The "unified" (Moluche) variant is probably the lingua franca used de facto in Chile (where the language, natively named Mapundungun, has official recognition in some regions, but not nationally), not in Argentina (where it is a minority language with no specific status granted, so there are possibly missing variants for Argentina).

Beside these spoken variants, there are also several competing orthographies with several alphabets. Raguileo is a simplified alphabet (using 26 letters: 25 from Basic Latin, plus ñ, and no other accents) which is designed to be easily read and written in the dominant American Spanish culture. But may be the Spanish tonic accent may be seen sometimes. Looks like the same difference between English and Simple English, the later simplifying the orthographic rules for foreign borrowed words, such as not transcribing the macrons over vowels for Japanese names, or writing "café" as "cafe" or just using "coffea" by adding a lemma to it and loosing a distinction).

If there are competing orthographies, we could have them on this site, provided that there's a variant registered (5 to 8 letters) in the IANA database for BCP47 (like "arm-ragui", "arm-unify", "arm-azumc").

The case is not exceptional, we have it for Belarusian (with "be-tarask") or Breton (for dialects, and for orthographies), or for French and German (for several orthographic variants).

The good question to ask: is there an orthography that can be accepted by all? this is possible for English, French, German or Breton, but no consensus was found for Belarusian; there's theoretically an official agreement accepted for variants of Portuguese, but various European and Brazilian Portuguese speakers have disagreed and want to use their own preference and don't like the other; the same is true for "formal" and "informal" variants in German or Dutch; if we don't need distinctions and can find a consensus that allows correct understanding by all, then no need for these variants. Verdy p (talk) 19:22, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the insights. "Variants" refer to orthographies. Unified is "Alfabeto Mapuche Unificado" (AMU), usual in academic publications, Raguileo is usual in some Mapuche organizations and Azümchefe is favored by Chilean government and some Mapuche organizations. Most people write in non-standard ways, usually they could be considered "Unified with z", "Raguileo with ch" or "Azümchefe with tr/x" and all of them with almost no interdentals (my guess is that "Unified with z" will prevail). Spoken variants are not an issue now.

Your question has a simple answer: "No". There is no agreement about orthography and it is a controversial subject. At least at this point, there should be three major orthographies, I hope Mapuche people reach an agreement one day. Regards. Lin linao chillkatuen 16:16, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

It's not just orthographies, sometimes this includes also grammatical variants (what is the correct way to write a plural, can we abbreviate/elide some terms, do we use a word mutation or add a prefix/suffix/particle/adverb) and placement of words in sentences. In some cases there are typographical preferences, and addressing differences (formal/informal). Note also that many language do not have a stable and agreed ortography, and peopel just write the best as they can as they hear and pronounce the spoken language (and there comes many regional dialects, such as mute letters, or alteration of phonetics, even if different people can understand each other and adopt easily the local terminology used by other speakers). Languages are complex and all of them in fact have many variants, also changing constantly over time (based on current events, politics, fashion, or depending on circonstances and who they are talking too and how they respect each other's cultural backgrounds...). Verdy p (talk) 16:43, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Sure, but original message refers to 3 different orthographies of Mapudungun with the word "variants". In Mapuche case, orthography is an issue to take in consideration and there should be different orthographies to chose in a wiki. Regards. Lin linao nütramkaen 00:08, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

You may search in the IANA database of subtags for BCP 47 if there are registered variants for the language. Otherwise you may discuss with Wikimedians to choose an suffix to use after the main language code (private use suffixes can be up to 8 letters or digits, after the "-x-" infix that indicates that what follows is private use. Because it will have private use, you need an agreement from a relevant community to use "arm-x-ragui" and some support. You may also request the addition of the variant to a linguist list to confirm the classifications and best choice of variants and how to designate them with a non-ambiguous name, that can then be requested to the autority managing the IANA database, with evidencves of support for it. Usually this first starts by developping contents using a private use code, and the process is faster and easier in Wikimedia (you can improve your request by not just working for Wikipedia, but for Wikisource based on culturally-important books, or by working in Wikitionary to develop and document the orthography, and source it if possible by existing word lists and books. Small groups can also work with more freedom in Wikia, where multiple concurrent and independant contents may be developped by a few or single users, and then discuss with other of the proposals. Wikia is an interesting platform for test/evaluation purpose. It's also interesting to work with linguistic departments of universities, or to interest some schools in your project (because schools may also get support from various NGOs). Visit also local libraries if they have kept old publications that they'd like to preserve with your help. Listen at what teachers in schools may like to find to help educating their children they want to interest along with their parents. inform your local city governments, they may like if you do that also with promotion of the region and its culture. Don't hesitate also to contact modest people in rural areas. They will be proud to support your efforts to promote your language and also refine the dialectal variety related to the activities they really have and their daily way of life (food, animals, nature, local toponymy...). For many dialects this requires local surveys, but many linguist searchers lack documents or can't visit all communities. NGOs and schools are excellent partners, just like visiting the minorities of aging people and listening them, as well as uneducated poor people. If you can, take audio records of interviews (with their agreement): searchers will be interested to hear them and document the phonology, to better adapt their existing orthographic models, just ask them to speak at what interest them and how they trace their life. Be kind, and try learning some words from them to reply in their language even if you don't understand everything (the audio records may be used later by experimented linguists). Also consider interviewing local social workers; and visit the markets and traditional festivities where you may meet more people than you expect. Most of these efforts do not require money, just time and presence, so be ready to delete local missions with those you'll meet irregularly (and that cannot always be easily and frequently contacted by modern means if they are not well developed in their rural areas). You may also interest local radios: start with mutiple small local projects, they will finally join their efforts and contact each other even if they are spread over a large area. Verdy p (talk) 00:52, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh and don't forget: exact orthography is not so important. Given the low litteracy there's in that language, jsut make you best to adapt a recognizable orthography even if it does not transcribe all phonetic details. Don't use too early very complex notations; you'll see later if you need more distinctions by adding some letters or accents, or if you need to write additional silent letters (which may be heard only in some dialects or needed for etymologic preservation if this helps better understanding the language as a whole. There will be a lot of unavoidable early errors or approximations: allow your past work to be reviewed and refined later with some basic unification to improve searchability in the content. Verdy p (talk) 00:58, 12 September 2019 (UTC)